NC Medical Board Dr. Rashid A. Buttar Transcript - Page 12 of 16
that. I don't know exactly, but I believe that's how they did it.
DR. McCULLOCH: How do you determine how many days a week to treat somebody with hydrogen peroxide?
WITNESS: Well, sir, the hydrogen peroxide has gotten a lot of attention --
DR. McCULLOCH: Well, okay, EDTA or whatever.
WITNESS: Well, hydrogen -- yeah, I was just going to say, hydrogen peroxide is maybe done six times in that six-week period, but EDTA I generally only give a chelator once a week.
And the reason is, is because I don't want to deplete the essential minerals. In fact, that is the bigger concern, so I don't do it more than once a week.
I may on rare occasion -- I have had patients with very high levels who are tolerant of the treatments and I have gone more aggressively given two treatments in a week, but usually in between they get a mineral drip. I've maybe done that half a dozen times in -- in 11 years of doing this treatment, but generally speaking it's only once a week.
And also if we're giving -- (inaudible) -- sulfonic we won't do that but more often -- more often than once every two weeks.
DR. McCULLOCH: Okay. But these people are getting IVs? We heard testimony they would come in for eight hours a day, five days a week.
WITNESS: The people that -- that are getting the immune modulation and some of those things, yes, sir, they can -- it can extend out that long. But the typical person that comes in for an EDTA, it's one gram per hour --
DR. McCULLOCH: I want to talk about the five-day-a-week people.
WITNESS: Oh, the five-day-a-week people, yes, sir. Some of those -- some of those may be an hour, an hour and fifteen minutes, some of the IVs and some of them may end up -- like EDTA for instance, if it's the full dose it's three hours.
DR. McCULLOCH: My question is, how -- how did you determine to do it five days a week as opposed to two days a week, as opposed to seven days a week.
WITNESS: Oh, I see what you're saying, sir. I actually started doing this when -- when we had the -- my first patients that came to me we actually did it only twice a week, but I didn't see it to be beneficial.
And based upon some of the work at some of the conferences that I attended where I learned how other doctors are doing it and their doses, some of these people would actually have patients in hospitals like in Mexico and the Dominican and Costa Rica and some places in Europe, they actually had these patients getting drips throughout a 24 hour period so the patients would actually be in the hospital, they do everything and that's how they were getting their treatments. So obviously frequency of therapy was -- was an important component.
We actually increased it to three and we saw that there was some more benefit and then I went to four to see if there was more benefit. We were only open four days a week for a number of years, but because we needed to be open a fifth day for patients that were suffering from either neurodegenerative disease or, in this particular case, cancer, we needed to have that fifth day, so we did.
And we've actually had -- some of my staff that have actually come in even on Saturdays to do treatments if we thought patients needed it. But generally speaking, a weekend, I try to give them a respite because it is -- our patients don't have hair loss and nausea and all that, but it is taxing on their system and they need a day of recovery.
DR. McCULLOCH: That's all I have, thanks.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Dr. Walker?
DR. WALKER: Dr. Buttar, do you provide any charity care?
WITNESS: Yes, sir. I've been blessed to be able to treat every child that's come to us with cancer without charging them anything.
DR. WALKER: How about adults?
WITNESS: No, sir. I -- if I was doing that, then I would actually be probably flipping hamburgers for a living because I wouldn't be able to afford to --
DR. WALKER: So you can't afford to treat one or two people a month that might be in dire need of your services, you couldn't absorb that?
WITNESS: No, sir, I couldn't. I have done that with children and I -- I give a lot more to charity than 10 percent, so -- but I chose not to go and to take this type of risk that I'm sitting here before you that I'm being scrutinized for in doing charity work. It would not be, I think, a wise -- a wise decision on my part from a financial basis or business decision.
DR. WALKER: Now, you stated earlier and correct me if I'm wrong, we can refer back to the record --
WITNESS: Yes, sir.
DR. WALKER: -- when you were quoting cancer patient survival, you said that you believed that about 40 percent of the cancer patients that you've treated are still alive.
WITNESS: Sir, I think -- I think I may have said that and what I meant to say, that I -- I can say that 40 percent of my patients that I have treated have had cancer something in their life that are still alive. That's what I meant to say.
DR. WALKER: Okay. Do you have any idea how many patients with Stage IV cancer when they presented with that to you with Stage IV cancer are still alive?
WITNESS: I would say probably -- well, let's see --
DR. WALKER: You can say, I don't know, if you don't know that.
WITNESS: Well, I can tell -- I can give you definitely a minimum, I can't you tell about the top number. We've got -- there's eight of them on the web site talking about their results and they're still alive and they all had Stage IV.
DR. WALKER: The one that we saw today on the testimony with breast cancer that had metastasized to her thoracic spine, her spleen and her skull --
WITNESS: Yes, sir.
DR. WALKER: -- stated that, you know, she was five years down the road and her most recent PET scan was unremarkable, had no evidence.
WITNESS: That's right, sir.
DR. WALKER: However, she was also receiving Somata and hormone therapy. Now, do you have any idea of how many of your patients are not receiving any other type of therapy except your therapy who are still alive?
WITNESS: Sir, those -- those other treatments that they were getting, she had already failed everything. She had been told that she only had six months to live. But all the other patients, I'm not familiar with all the different things, but I encourage my patients as you've seen in the consent forms that they must continue with whatever other therapies their primary care providers have recommended.
That's one reason that I have a close working relationship with a number of oncologists and I can name those oncologists, if you would like.
DR. WALKER: That's okay. On that question let me just clarify one thing.
WITNESS: Yes, sir.
DR. WALKER: Obviously, if she's still being treated by an oncologist with two additional drugs that might appropriately be called some type of chemo therapy, she had not exhausted all therapy because she's still receiving and she's still agreeing to receive it. Just a little correction there.
WITNESS: Well, sir, she was told by her oncologist that they -- she had been refracted to chemotherapy and that they were going to just treat her from a hormonal respective. That's what she was told. I'm just going by what the oncologist --
DR. WALKER: Okay. Well, we don't know what the oncologist really told her.
Have you ever heard of the concept, you don't treat the labs, we treat the patient?
WITNESS: Absolutely, sir.
DR. WALKER: And it seemed as though in many of these patients the definition of success was a diminution of various markers or an allegation of various immune markers. Is that not what you said that the patient's liver functions were getting better, that the patient's zero marker was decreasing, that the various immunologic markers which you measured were also improving?
WITNESS: Yes, sir, I did say that and that is exactly what I'm doing for two reasons. One --
DR. WALKER: I'm -- I'm just asking you if this is what you said.
WITNESS: Yes, sir, that is what I said.
DR. WALKER: And -- and did not two of these three patients die within the next few months?
WITNESS: One within four months and one within just a few days.
DR. WALKER: Right.
WITNESS: Well, actually, excuse me. The one with the LFTs within a few days, yes, sir.
DR. WALKER: Have you ever not treated a patient?
WITNESS: Sir --
DR. WALKER: I'm not asking for your philosophy, I'm just asking a simply question. Have you ever not treated a patient?
WITNESS: I have never not treated a patient, sir.
DR. WALKER: Thank you.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Dr. Buttar, early on in your testimony you said you left the military in 1996 and you were doing ER work at the time and you said, I could have become certified by the American Organization of Physician Specialists. Did you ever get certified by them?
WITNESS: For emergency medicine, ma'am, no, I did not. I -- but the emergency rooms that I was working at took my experience with the military as sufficient and I wasn't sure if I was going to stay in medicine and that's one reason that I decided that I would not pursue that course --
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Okay.
WITNESS: -- that course of action.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: I want to go back to the small notebook to Tab 21 and --
WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: We'll go back to page 4 of that.
WITNESS: Page 4, ma'am?
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Yes, sir.
MR. KNOX: I'm sorry, what tab was that on page 4?
PRESIDENT RHYNE: 21 of the thin notebook. You have stated several times that hydrogen peroxide and the oxygen therapy that you were doing was really quite safe. Are you aware of these studies here and I'll just read out a few, Hydrogen Peroxide, a source of Lethal Oxygen Embolism, Case Review -- Report and Review of the Literature in the American Journal Forensic Medical Oncology and we want to skip the one -- the quackery one that you talked about.
WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Cerebral Infarction Immediately after Ingestion of Hydrogen Peroxide, FDA Warns Consumers Against Drinking Hydrogen Peroxide and then Hydrogen Peroxide Poisoning. Are you familiar with all those?
WITNESS: Absolutely, ma'am. Most of my patients that come in that are seeking this type of therapy have read many of these types of things about the recommendation on the Internet, which as I mentioned before are not reliable, and asking me their opinion and I tell them certainly not -- this is -- this is very unsafe.
The amount of hydrogen peroxide we're giving is the same amount of hydrogen peroxide that the macrophage within the system secretes. In fact, it's -- it's less than what the macrophage secrete when you take the whole system into account. This is how our own immune system works, so --
PRESIDENT RHYNE: And it looks -- this is copyrighted down at the bottom and it looks like it was copyrighted down there by the Cancer Society.
WITNESS: Yes, ma'am, it does appear to be that. The American Cancer Society web site that I've been to is www.acs.org, so I just saw that just now, but I did not see that before.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Okay. Now, you stated several times that you thought prayer was very important and that prayer might change your Natural Killer Cell Activity and prayer definitely helps things.
How do you know with just looking at some of your patients and the patient improvements that what we're seeing is improvement not during the prayer -- not due to prayer? How do you factor that out with your other variables?
WITNESS: Well, ma'am, I -- that's a great question and I don't factor it out because I don't know. I think that if I sat there and prayed for my patients and didn't treat them, though, I don't think I would get the same response rate in stimulating their immune system and detoxifying them.
But I do believe that part of prayer is God as in all the religions say that God helps those who help themselves, so I put a little bit of prayer behind what I'm trying to do and -- and hope for the best response for the patient.
But I -- I certainly am not going to not say the prayer because it could be -- it could be giving me an edge and I believe that even if it's an edge that I believe or the patient believes or either way. It's not that we hold hands and say prayer around our patients or anything like that, but I pray for my patients and -- and I know that my patients pray for me.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Okay.
WITNESS: And part of that is also that I ask patients to pray that -- that -- that I'm guided in whatever it is the best to help them get the optimum response. So it's not just a prayer with the patient but a prayer where -- the patient with me to make sure that I'm doing the best of my ability to help them.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Okay. The next question I was going to ask you he already covered about that 40 percent of the cancer patients still alive today and you now say you misstated that.
WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. It's -- it's 40 percent of my patients have had cancer that are still alive today, yes, ma'am.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Okay. Under --
WITNESS: Ma'am, that's -- that's just a rough estimate. I -- I -- you know, it could be a little bit more, it could be a little bit less. I'm just eye-balling it.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Okay. That is fine. On your consent form, that generic consent form, you had people consent to functional treatments and I was just curious, what is a functional treatment?
WITNESS: A functional treatment would be something that is seeking to improve a physiological function. For instance, giving somebody -- what would be a good example?
Giving somebody that has -- let's see, a function treatment would be somebody that has a gut abnormality as far as mobility is concerned and maybe they're not digesting or absorbing their food and giving them a high dose of glutathione orally which would help the function of the absorption of nutrients because that -- (inaudible) -- seems to be very high in glutathione or actually the same thing could be done -- could be said about glutathione. Glutathione as you know is an abundant antioxidant within every cell, but it's primarily found with that --(inaudible) -- site. So if I give somebody glutathione, my goal is to up-regulate their P450 and Phase I/Phase II.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Right. And I understand once you say that and I know that we've all been taught these things about chemistry.
WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: But in terms of randomized clinical trials looking at that, I don't think that you're going to find any evidence to support that.
WITNESS: I would probably concur with you, ma'am. It's been used pretty extensively throughout the world. Glutathiones are given, you know, in many different forms, but I'm not familiar with any of those studies you're talking.
Although I do believe that there is more study being done now in the area of functional medicine. The Institute of Functional Medicine in Gate Harbor, Washington state, they have a number of studies that are going on right now.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Okay. And then I was just a little curious too about the patient -- it's under Tab 11 and I can't remember if she was the ovarian or the cervical cancer.
MS. GODFREY: In whose book?
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Your book. Your book.
WITNESS: And, ma'am, if I --
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Tab 11, your --
WITNESS: Tab 11, the big book?
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Yeah, the doctor's and Mr. Knox's book. You had stated in your testimony that her jaundice wasn't addressed and yet his first sentence or the second sentence talks about jaundice and her elevated liver functions.
WITNESS: Sorry, ma'am, I haven't gotten to that point yet.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: And I think that was --
MS. GODFREY: Tab 11.
WITNESS: This is -- Dr. Freedman's e-mail that we're --
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Yes, sir.
WITNESS: And what was the question, I'm sorry?
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Well, I think it was more of an observation than a question. You had said that her liver -- you had said at one time her jaundice wasn't addressed at all and yet he talks about her elevated liver test.
WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. What I meant to say was and I thought that's what I said, is that her jaundice wasn't addressed, meaning that they didn't do anything to see if there was a mass effect causing compression of the biliary system or was it an obstruction. There was nothing that was done to address whether or not there was something that could be done, if she could have had a stent put in to maybe possibly help her and that's why I sent her to Dr. Clements to address it.
I didn't say that they didn't recognize it, I said they didn't do anything to address it. But, again, it's not -- it's not a criticism on their part, it was just --
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Yeah. I was just -- because he -- he does say she has massive liver metastasis and that he didn't think there was any further therapy, so --
WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: -- I'm just taking that, you know --
WITNESS: Yes, ma'am, I understand.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: I'm not sure I understand that he didn't address it.
WITNESS: Ma'am, if I may make one comment regarding the question previous to that that you had asked me about the studies.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Uh-huh (yes).
WITNESS: One of the problems is -- and I think that, you know, one thing that I've learned in the last 17 years as a doctor is that 99.9 percent of doctors that I've come across truly want to do the best for their patients.
But we have been trained, after our formal training, primarily by drug reps that come into our office. In fact, that's the reason I don't let a drug rep come into my office is because the reason that they're -- the reason that all these new drugs are being developed is because they're trying to patent something to make money on these drugs.
Things like glutathione or things like hydrogen peroxide or EDTA that are either out of pattern or -- there's no way for anybody -- any pharmaceutical company to make money, they're not going to fund the randomized clinical trials.
It's -- I mean, the TAC trial took us, you know, 60 years. I fact, EDTA was indicated therapy for cardiovascular disease within the Physician's Desk Reference. It's been -- there's a whole chapter in Meserley's Textbook of Cardiology dedicated to EDTA. But once bypass was introduced, suddenly EDTA at this period from the Physician's Desk Reference leaving an indication for the removal of atheroma to help to reduce the lymphoperoxidation that's found within the atheroma.
My point being again that a lot of this funding of double-blinded placebo-controlled trials or multi-centered trials is motivated by the pharmaceutical companies to make big dollars. And if there's no profit potential for it, they don't have any incentive to do so.
So either my choice is to do something empirically based upon what my observations have been because my patients don't have another 20 years or 15 years or 30 years before these studies have been substantiated to show that, yes, this is the better way.
So I have a choice that I have to make. Either it's, one, I do the best that I can for my patient based upon the empirical evidence making sure that I do no harm; or two, to resort to the same model of medicine that was making me question whether I really deserve this type of personal agony that I was creating for myself by being in this profession that I didn't feel like I was helping people.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: And there again there are plenty of opportunities for research, there are plenty of recognized trials. You can do IRBs. There are some private IRB organizations.
WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. Before you --
PRESIDENT RHYNE: I think what our point is, is that we're scientists.
WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: -- and we ought to prove something. We don't like to just say that there's no inherent proof that we don't -- impericism has it's place in some forms. We like proof that something works.
WITNESS: I'm --
PRESIDENT RHYNE: And objective evidence is the best sign of that.
WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. I am one of the TAC trial investigators and we participate in as much as we can whenever there's an opportunity to do so.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Okay. Do you send -- do you send notes to referred doctors, cardiologists, oncologist? I hadn't seen in your charts and yet I've seen you have plenty of notes from cardiologists and oncologists where they -- they've sent copies to their doctors. And as you and I both know that communication between physicians is very, very important and I can't tell from your notes that you've had any communication.
WITNESS: As you can see, ma'am, there's notes in there from other doctors back to us from like Dr. Clements and from some of the other doctors, Dr. Holbert and such. But usually --
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Right, but I didn't see yours going the other way?
WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. And that's because I usually pick up the phone and I call them and I talk to them and then on this document, talked with so and so, but I have not.
This is -- it's a logistical issue and we're going to electronic medical records so that we can actually have more of -- more of method of how -- what the discussion was with the doctor.
But usually I'll talk to them on the phone and when I send the patient I'll take our stuff and make a copy and give it to the patient, so the doctor has everything rather than having one letter that I send to the doctor that's included in the chart. I have not done that in the past.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: And do you document in your chart that you talked to the doctor?
WITNESS: Yes, ma'am, it is documented in the chart.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Where was that at? I guess I'm just --
WITNESS: And which -- which patient would you like for me to --
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Well, any of them. I didn't see it on any of them.
WITNESS: We can start with the first one, ma'am, if you would like and work our way down.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: If you can just show me one, I would be happy.
WITNESS: Sure. In Patient --
MR. KNOX: A.
WITNESS: -- Patient A, okay.
MS. GODFREY: That's 9 in our notebook.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Tab -- tab 9?
WITNESS: And there's -- and often, ma'am, I will just ask one of my staffs to make the note while I'm talking to them, but on 8/8/06 on C5 that I -- myself and my nurse practitioner or by the RN, discussed the patient and I called Dr. Clements and arranged for her to see him.
On 8/15 on page -- it's C7B, discussed with Dr. Holbert in detail. And I think these are the only two times for this patient that I sent them.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: You had mentioned Patient B that you discharged her from your practice.
WITNESS: Yes, ma'am, because -- yes, ma'am, I did.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Did -- and how did you do that?
WITNESS: It's --
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Is there a letter or --
WITNESS: Yes -- well, there's a final note and then my nurse practitioner, Ms. Garcia, called Dr. Holbert and told her that we were discharging her from the patient -- from our -- as a patient. And we sent -- I believe we sent her records to Dr. Holbert or --
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Did you arrange for care for her?
WITNESS: Oh, yes, ma'am, we didn't -- we didn't desert her. Of course we -- you know, we can -- we have a policy that for 30 days unless there's something else going on, but for 30 days, ma'am, we'll still continue to help the patient as much as we possibly can, but we won't administered any more IV therapies or do any types of treatments, just if there's any type of -- you know, when the patient doesn't have any continuity care, but she was referred back to an -- from the last note from Ms. Garcia indicates that. I can show you that if you like.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Okay. And do you sell vitamins from the office for people to take home? I know you give the vitamin infusions. Do you actually sell them in the office also?
WITNESS: Yes, ma'am, I do. Yes, ma'am. And that's where that letter that -- or the document from the North Carolina Medical Board that we got that --
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Okay.
WITNESS: -- that they have a choice in --
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Okay.
WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Okay. That's all I have.
MR. JIMISON: I have nothing.
WITNESS: The biggest reason we do that, ma'am, is, one, is for quality, but the biggest reason is for convenience because the patients can get it while they're there in our office. And usually the cost of what they're going to pay us is less than what they would have paid at an GNC. Or just like the protein powder, I think it's $76, that's actually two pounds so that's four pounds and that's a coal filter whey isolate protein and the same protein or the same -- if you want to call it the same quality, it's not the same quality because it's not whey, it's not concentrated as the way I sell it -- whey isolate that we're using for the same four pounds it's over $180 at GNC.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Thank you.
WITNESS: Thank you.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Dr. McCulloch?
DR. McCULLOCH: Just one more question.
WITNESS: Yes, sir.
DR. McCULLOCH: The first person that, I can't say her name, I can't remember.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: No.
WITNESS: One of the patients, sir, you're talking about?
DR. McCULLOCH: The wife of the patient --
WITNESS: Oh, yes, sir.
DR. McCULLOCH: -- with adrenal cancer.
WITNESS: Yes, sir.
DR. McCULLOCH: It's Kenny.
WITNESS: Ms. Kenny.
DR. McCULLOCH: Yeah, I knew it, I just didn't know if I could say it.
She testified that you told them that you could treat his cancer with 100 percent success rate. And -- and I would just like to hear you respond to that. Why do you think she would have said that if --
WITNESS: I can't tell you -- I'm sorry, sir, go ahead.
DR. McCULLOCH: -- if you didn't say that?
WITNESS: Sir, I've never seen that woman in my life. I've never seen that woman and I document in my chart, if I have a patient that there with a family member, I always document it. Any charts that you pull from me, if it's a patient from out of state, I put down what state or what country they're from and then I put down who accompanied them.
And you'll notice in this chart, it doesn't say anything about any family member. And when I was asked if I had seen her, I said I've never seen and then I was told that she said seen me once. And I said, well, if she says that, then so be it. I didn't have any reason to doubt her.
However, I talked to four members of my staff that worked with me -- that worked for me at that time that still continue to work for me and all four of them have said that they've never seen her. She's never been to our clinic. If she has been to the clinic, I certainly did not see here. She certainly never sat in on the first consultation with XXX.
I had a very close relationship with Mr. Kenny. He was very difficult. A lot of our staff members when we found out what happened, but he never talked about his wife. We always talked about his kids. There was never a mention about his wife. All I know is that on a few occasion walked into the examine room screaming on the phone, he apologized to me and shut the phone and that's all I can tell you.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Thank you.
WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Board Members, do you have anything else? Thank you very much.
WITNESS: Thank you.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Go ahead with your next witness.
MR. KNOX: This is the deposition of Mr. Hewitt.
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
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(WHEREUPON, THE VIDEOTAPE DEPOSITION
OF WILLIAM JOHN HEWITT TAKEN ON APRIL 9, 2008
WAS PLAYED AND IS HEREBY ATTACHED
IN ITS ENTIRETY AS EXHIBIT 47)
------------------------------------------------------------
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Mr. Knox or Ms. Godfrey, how many more witnesses do you have?
MR. KNOX: Well, we have one short tape and I mean it's --
MS. GODFREY: Twenty minutes.
MR. KNOX: -- it's 20 minutes. That one went a lot longer than thought. But, anyway, then we have two independent witnesses.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Okay. And they're new -- it's new material because this tape was a lot of the same stuff that occurred.
MR. KNOX: Well, one of them is a cancer patient. I have a series of affidavits in your book -- our book. The one I particularly ask you to read, I want you to look at all of them, but look Dr. Lintala who is a gentleman who was supposed to be on-call for us to talk to him and I'm willing to go pass that, but if I could put those affidavits in.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: All right. Why don't we take about a ten-minute break and then we'll come back and watch that other video. Everybody is talking about they want to have a break. Dr. Buttar is walking around the room.
MR. KNOX: But before do that, if I -- if I may, just the gentleman that's on the -- he gave an affidavit and it is in your book and we offer that as evidence. It's number 39, is a copy of that. I think it speaks pretty much to what he said, but I'd like to say she was the first one to be treated by him.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Okay.
MR. JIMISON: Now, there is one way we could -- I mean, the next videotape is just 20 minutes long. I think there is a transcript of it and we could just have the transcript entered into evidence of that instead of watching the videotape.
MR. KNOX: That's not -- I will do anything to accommodate you, but we took -- we've already waived one deposition that we took and this is an important person --
MR. JIMISON: Well, watch the videotape. Okay.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: We'll watch the video.
(3:27 P.M. - 3:38 P.M. RECESS)
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Please proceed, Mr. Knox?
MR. KNOX: The affidavit of Dr. Alan Lintala who I indicated earlier, it's in Exhibit 36 and he was scheduled to be a telephone witness and there's affidavits -- and we can give everybody copies of these.
There's an affidavit of Rosi Arrondo and Number 39, affidavit of Hewitt, that I just told you about. And there is an affidavit Anne Phelps. Yeah, they were here yesterday and so were the Hewitts. An affidavit of both Anne and Joe Phelps, 41 and 42.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: All right.
MR. KNOX: We gave you an executed copy of Michelle Reed that was supposed to have been on the phone this morning and that completes the affidavits.
And we mentioned this to you, the transcript ‑- the video transcript we did of Frances Allen because he was duplicative to Mr. Jarrett, I did not show that.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Okay.
MR. KNOX: But that affidavit ‑- that transcript will be introduced and I'm trying to do all I can to save as much time as I can. We can give these to Madam Court Reporter.
MS. GODFREY: While we're ‑- while we're waiting on that, Dr. Buttar also asked ‑- I'm sorry, I didn't mean to stand up.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Go right ahead.
MS. GODFREY: It's kind of a habit.
Dr. Buttar also asked could I hand up some additional articles. I'll go ahead and hand them to Marcus. I believe one of them you have already, the ‑- the one from the proceedings of the National Academy of Science. I think you used it in Dr. Ripoll's deposition and this is the role of hydrogen peroxide and hydroradical formation killing early tumor cells in the body -- anticancer.
There's also some articles dealing with ozone relating to the 8th Annual Ozone World Congress in Zurich, Switzerland, ozone in medicine over your future directions, ozone therapy for tumor, oxygenation of pilot studies.
And some articles on oxygen hemostasis.
Lastly, an article published in Lung Cancer by the Department of Oncology at the Mayo Clinic, is voluntary vitamin and mineral supplementation associated with their outcome in non-small cell lung cancer patients. And Dr. Buttar would want to ‑- wants to submit these to the Board for their consideration.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Thank you.
MR. JIMISON: And in that vein, I don't have the ‑-
MS. GODFREY: And the New England Journal of Medicine abstract is in ‑- in our exhibits already, but I'll hand this up. And that had to do with hydrogen peroxide and the ‑- I'm losing my words -- it's ‑- it had to do with hydrogen peroxide in increasing the efficacy of chemotherapy.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Thank you.
MR. JIMISON: In that ‑- Dr. Rhyne, in that same vein, just for housekeeping and the court reporter, if the Board can go ahead and introduce Exhibits 18, 19, 20 and 21, and I believe you have the copy of Dr. Buttar's e-mail which will be 25. We can go ahead ‑- if we can go ahead and put those into evidence as well.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Okay. That's fine.
MS. GODFREY: There's one thing I would like to do and, again, for housekeeping purposes with the court reporter, if I could get our exhibit list ‑- where's our exhibit list?
MS. GEMZA: I've got it right here.
MS. GODFREY: I have a list in the front of our exhibit book and I do a little check off as how I try to keep track of it. And you see my chart, it's in the table of contents? I would just like to check off with the court reporter the ones that I believe were received into evidence.
MR. JIMISON: Well, it might be faster if you do the ones that are not admitted.
MS. GODFREY: Well ‑- well, there might be ‑- let's tender these for the record. Exhibit ‑-
MR. JIMISON: Well ‑-
MS. GODFREY: Exhibit 1, which is the CV of Dr. Buttar. Exhibit 2, we ‑-
MR. JIMISON: We could do ‑-
MS. GODFREY: ‑- Nurse Garcia is yet to testify.
MR. JIMISON: That's fine, you can go ahead.
MS. GODFREY: Number 3 is the correspondence from David Henderson. Again ‑-
MR. JIMISON: There are only a few that I have an objection. Number 3 right now is the only one I have an objection to.
MS. GODFREY: Okay. Number ‑- I will tender it for the record whether or not the Board decides to consider it or not is ‑- it is certainly up to you, but I will tender Number 3 for the record, correspondence from Mr. Henderson.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Okay.
MS. GODFREY: Number 4, correspondence to Thomas ‑- Thomas Mansfield.
Number 5, Collaborative Practice Agreement.
Number 6, Patient A Consent Forms.
Number 7, a letter from John Clements.
Number 8, review sheets from Dr. John Peterson.
Number 9, progress notes for Patient A.
Number 10, IRR sheets for Patient A.
Number 11, it's a note from M.D. Anderson Cancer Center on Patient A.
Number 12, Patient B Consent Forms.
Number 13, progress notes on Patient B.
Number 14, Patient B lab work.
Number 15, a medical dictionary that Patient B gave to Dr. Buttar.
Number 16, the estate file of Patient B.
Number 17, the Consent Forms for Patient C.
Number 18, the progress notes for Patient C.
Number 19, the blood work on cancer for Patient C.
Number 20, Patient C's medical records and prior CT scans.
Number 21, Patient C's past treatment record.
Number 22, Patient D Consent Forms.
Number 23, Patient D's progress notes.
Number 24, Patient D urine toxic metal labs.
Number 25, Patient D's ‑- those actually will be covered in Nurse Garcia's testimony.
Number 26, Costs of selected IVs.
Number 27, sign from the waiting room.
Number 28, we have a witness for that.
Number 29, CV of John Wilson, M.D.
(COURT REPORTER'S NOTE - Number 30 omitted)
Number 31, CV of Emilia Ripoll, M.D.
Number 32, e-mail from Patient E's mother.
Number 33, Patient C's death certificate.
Number 34, the abstract from the New England Journal of Medicine.
Number 35, CV of John Peterson.
I believe that Mr. Knox just moved into evidence the affidavits 36 through 42; is that right?
PRESIDENT RHYNE: He did. He did.
MS. GODFREY: Okay. And we have the transcripts of the patients 43 through 47 that testified on video deposition.
We have one yet to hear and that will be Number 44.
Number 48, the transcript of Dr. Ripoll.
49, the subpoena to Stephanie Kenny.
Number 50, let's see, let me ‑- we have not ‑- we have not referred Exhibit 50. It's the transcript of Patient D. I'm not sure we're going to ‑-
MR. JIMISON: I will be objecting to that. That's a patient who has not testified and that would be just a discovery deposition. There is ‑- that's just ‑- discovery depositions are when counsel on the other side is to ask questions of the witness. There's just really no rules and she hasn't testified and so therefore there would be no cause for that exhibit.
MS. GODFREY: I believe under Rules of Civil Procedure, we can read a party deponent's deposition into evidence. And Patient B is a complaining ‑- was one of the complaining witnesses in the case and I believe that makes her a party deponent.
MR. JIMISON: She ‑- she's ‑- I'm sorry.
MR. KNOX: I don't think that's --
MR. JIMISON: She's not a party in --
MR. KNOX: I think we've already agreed that that's ‑- that she's no longer a party in the case.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Okay.
MS. GODFREY: Okay. There were some transcripts ‑- some other discovery transcripts that I think were just used as cross-examination. Exhibit 55 is one that I would just like to move into evidence. It is a summary exhibit and it was previously furnished to the Medical Board.
What we did and this came in quite late, but we did get a list of the medical charges for Patient B at Forsyth Regional Cancer Center. And I just ‑- what we did is go through and add up the total amount of charges that Patient B incurred before she went to Dr. Buttar and I move that into evidence.
Like I said, those records were subpoenaed by the Board, they ‑- and ‑- and we went through and added up and provided this to Mr. Jimison as a summary exhibit because quite frankly the medical bill was that thick. And so rather than put that into evidence, we ‑- we did it this way just as a point of reference to the amount that was spent in Patient B's cancer treatment prior to her coming to Dr. Buttar.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: That's fine. We'll accept those that we agreed on.
MR. JIMISON: And one last brief piece of housekeeping, because a lot of these documents have specific patient information and they're very voluminous to have to be redacted, I would like to move that they be kept under seal and that if there's a public request for them, that we will make them public, but only after we inspect them and make sure all the redactions were complete. So I wanted to keep these from errors, you know, because sometimes you don't redact everything. It's just so many documents and so we can --
MS. GODFREY: We did our very best to redact everything in the exhibits that we presented.
MR. JIMISON: I can't guarantee that we got everything. I'm not sure they can guarantee they got everything, but just keep under seal ‑-
PRESIDENT RHYNE: That's ‑- that's fine.
MS. GODFREY: Until when?
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Until ‑-
MR. JIMISON: Until there's a public request. I mean, it's just a government ‑- if there's a public request for the exhibits, then we would provide the exhibits, you know, as part of the public request, but only at the time we've had the time to inspect the documents and make sure they were completely redacted.
MS. GODFREY: Okay.
COURT REPORTER: Now, I still have a question. I'm still uncertain about Exhibit 3 and Exhibit 50. 50 I could take out of this book and give back to you; and Exhibit 3, I'm not sure of that.
MR. KNOX: Well, actually Exhibit 3 was the letter, right?
REPORTER: Right.
MR. JIMISON: The tendered letter, but that was the non-public letter.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Yeah.
MR. KNOX: Well, it's tendered for the record, so you would want to keep a copy of it for the transcription even though she knew not to consider it.
MR. JIMISON: Yeah, I don't ‑-
MR. KNOX: There's no other way to do it.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: I'm sorry, you're going to have to tell me what tendered means.
MR. KNOX: Well, we tendered a letter by one of the people with the Medical Board.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Right, I know what ‑-
MR. KNOX: Tender means we handed up to you and he objected to it and you said, well, I'm not going to let that in. We want to put that in the record for subsequent hearings if there are any that -- and if it's right or wrong. It's not personal, but it's that we want to consider that.
MR. JIMISON: That's fine.
MR. KNOX: It's showing prejudice if nothing else.
MR. JIMISON: That's fine. We're fine with that.
MR. KNOX: That's the short version of it.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Okay.
MR. KNOX: We're not quite as authoritative --
MR. JIMISON: And just one last thing, Dr. Rhyne. Mr. Mansfield will be co-counseling during rebuttal. If there's a rebuttal we're planning on calling Dr. Buttar back to the stand for a quick rebuttal and Mr. Mansfield will be doing the examination and I just want to give everybody a heads up so at least after their last witness we have at least one more witness which will be Dr. Buttar that we will call back in rebuttal.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Okay. And then I think 50 we just said ‑- we all decided would ‑-
MS. GODFREY: We all decided that 50 was not going to come in.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Yeah --
MS. GODFREY: No, that's ‑-
PRESIDENT RHYNE: -- that's the one you agreed ‑-
MS. GODFREY: ‑- deposition of Patient D. Well, we're tender it for the record.
MR. KNOX: Yeah.
MS. GODFREY: Well, the record will note that it's not admitted into evidence and we'll tender it for the record.
MR. JIMISON: Fine.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Thank you.
MR. KNOX: Okay.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: All right. I think we're ready to go and you had can call your next witness.
MR. KNOX: Okay, yeah. Nina Wall, will you come around please and be sworn?
WHEREUPON,
NINA NEWTON WALL,
being first duly sworn,
was examined and testified
as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. KNOX:
QWould you tell the Board your name, please?
AMy name is Nina Newton Wall.
QAnd where do you live?
AMooresville, North Carolina.
QAnd are you married?
AYes.
QWould you just tell them your educational background?
AI have a Bachelor of Science degree in Health Education and a music degree. I have been certified in chelation therapy and ‑-
QAnd how long have you worked at Advanced Concepts with Dr. Buttar?
AFor more than eight years.
QOkay. And y'all were in Cornelius, correct?
AYes.
QAnd the office is now down in Huntersville?
AYes.
QOkay. And would you just tell them generally what your job is and what you do?
AWell, I'm employed as an IV tech. I also work in the biofeedback and hyperbarics. I do EKGs for mass density. A little bit of anything that needs to be done.
QAnd in the course of your work you are watching Dr. Buttar in is practice quite obviously?
AYes.
QAnd what is ‑- what is his demeanor with his patients and things of that nature?
AWell, he's one of the most ‑- most kind people I've ever met. He's very concerned about his patients. He tries very hard to ‑- to make sure they understand where he stands on things and he wants very much for them to understand that he's there to help them help themselves ‑- help their body to help itself. He's very quick to let them know that he's not the Almighty.
QAnd are you trained in some type of therapy of things that you do practice there at the clinic?
AYes.
QAnd what training have you had?
AI have had extensive training in biofeedback, advanced classes in that. I'm certified in chelation therapy and have been since 1991 ‑- I think it's '91 and have gone through some hyperbaric training.
QOkay. Just briefly, do you know Patient A? If Patient A came to the clinic, did you get to see her?
AI'm sorry, I'm not sure who is ‑-
QPatient A is a lady from ‑-
MS. GODFREY: With cervical cancer.
Q‑- cervical cancer, the daughter that she had testified to --
AYes.
QAnd do you remember her daughter coming into the clinic?
AYes, I do.
QAnd in the course of their time that they spent there, was there any dissatisfaction ever expressed by anybody about the daughter's treatment?
ANo, not at all.
QWould you ‑- would you do some of the therapy on those patients?
AYes, I did.
QAnd can you just express one way or the other her either interest in continuing the therapy or not?
AThe daughter or the mother?
QLet's take the mother first and the daughter next.
AThe mother was very determined to do whatever was necessary to prolong her life and make it as viable and enjoyable for however long. The daughter stood by her for every step of that.
QNo complaints by the two of them, ever?
ANot to me.
QHow about Patient B, the lady that was there for several weeks that had the ovarian cancer?
AShe was a very quiet lady. She was just sweet and kind. I heard her talk a great deal about her ‑- her daughter or her son. I can't remember if it was the daughter or son, but it was some years ago. But she did talk about how much she loved her children.
I don't remember her talking very much about a nephew who seemed to be really -- I mean, she may have, I just don't remember at this time.
QWere there any complaints about -- from her or her boyfriend about the treatment that you were all giving?
ANo, sir, not that I remember.
QPatient C, the only one you had to deal with. Patient C is the patient that had adrenal cancer, right?
AYes.
QNow, do you remember when he first came there as a patient? Did you meet him?
AYes.
QDo you remember whether or not his wife, the lady that was here who testified, was she present with him?
ANo, sir, not to my knowledge. I've never seen her come in. I'm sure we would --
QAnd so the times that she ‑- can you hear her? Sorry.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: I didn't hear the last sentence.
AI'm sorry. Not to my knowledge can I ever remember seeing her come in.
QSo you don't know whether she did or not, but you don't remember seeing her?
ANo, I do not.
QThe patient had what kind of relationship with the staff?
AHe had a very close relationship with us. There was many mornings that when we would drive up and lots of times I was the first person there and the last one to leave, he would be in the parking lot waiting ‑- waiting for somebody to be there. Granted, it was kind of nice because sometimes it was dark, so I was glad to have somebody there.
I'd go, come on in and sit down, you know, we've got to everything going. He said, oh, that's all right. Can I just, you know, come back and talk and visit. He just wanted to visit. He just wanted ‑- very quickly we became more than just a doctor's office to him. We were his comfort zone. He didn't like to leave. Many times he would be through with treatments early in the afternoon, but he would wait and just walk out with us and leave.
He was a musician, too.
QBy the way, he lived in Matthews. How far is Matthews from Cornelius?
AI guess it's about an hour.
QOkay. And have you ever been to Matthews down 485 to Cornelius?
ANo.
QIs there any way to go up 485 and go to Cornelius?
ANot that I know.
QOh, there's not. Well, actually 485 runs into Statesville Road and stops there, doesn't it?
ACorrect.
QOkay. The times that you spent with him going over his treatment did you feel like he was improving?
AOh, absolutely. Absolutely.
QWhat was your observations about the improvements, if any, you made? Go ahead.
ADuring the time that he was there we saw him almost blossom. When he came in ‑- I can remember vividly him coming in and the reason I can remember this is because I quickly found out that he was musician and a drummer and I always wanted to play the drums. So we struck up this conversation, but ‑-
QAnd you play ‑- you play the piano, don't you?
AI play the piano and organ, yes. And our conversations were so ‑- just good. He even wanted to teach me how to play drums, he wanted me to help him with some music that he was wanting to write, but he seemed so weak.
And I remember making the comment to him that, well, you know, we're going to have to get you a little stronger before we start trying to do all this, but it's good to make plans. It gives us another goal.
So, yes, he ‑- he started to thrive.
He brought in a piece of poetry that he had written and he said, here, read this and come up with some music for it.
And I said, okay. When you get to the point that you start teaching me to play drums, I'll write your music.
And he worked really hard that before long he was thriving and he would even bounce in the office and tell me about something that he had come up with music-wise or he would say, I feel okay today, but, yet, he still had ‑- some energy was not there.
QDid he write this Postcard from Heaven and give it to you?
AHe did. That was ‑-
QThat's in ‑-
AThat was the piece that he wanted me to write music to.
QIt's the last page of Exhibit 28.
So you had continuous contact with him. Now, toward the end of his treatment, do you know if there was any discussion about him going somewhere else for therapy?
AI was not personally involved with a great deal of that. He did say that he ‑- he liked being with us, he was comfortable with us, felt safe with us; however, he respected whatever Dr. Buttar's recommendation was going to be.
QI show that there's a series of e-mails from apparently to you. What is ‑- if you would look at these and tell me if they're yours that you received and who they were received from.
MS. GODFREY: This is Exhibit 28, the first part of the exhibit notebook.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Thank you.
AYes. These are e-mails that ‑- that he had written to me because when he ‑- actually, it was the last day that he was in our office before he left to go to Mexico for treatment, I was on vacation, so we didn't get to actually, you know, say good-bye and wish each other well.
But I was so concerned that he was in a foreign country by himself that I kept e-mailing him just to let him know that we were not just still there for him, but we were still part of the team.
QAnd did he always respond to you?
AYes.
QWas there anything negative that you recall that this patient said to you or any other employee that the treatment there was erroneous or there was a guarantee, or anything of that nature?
ANever.
QNow, you know that a payment ‑- a check was stopped by his wife that he paid? Do you know that or not?
ANo, sir. I'm not involved in any facet of the money portions of the office.
Dr. Buttar Truth Quotes
“Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.”
—- Albert Einstein
“Truth is generally the best vindication against slander.”
—- Abraham Lincoln
"All truth passes through 3 phases: First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed, and Third, it is accepted as self-evident."
—- Arthur Schopenhauer
"There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things because the innovator has for enemies all those who have done well under the old conditions and lukewarm defenders in those who may do well under the new."
—- Machiavelli, The Prince