NC Medical Board Dr. Rashid A. Buttar Transcript - Page 2 of 16
QRight.
QAnd how ‑- how many weeks did he do it?
ASixteen.
QSixteen weeks?
ARight.
QWas 16 weeks originally discussed between you and Dr. Buttar and your husband?
MR. KNOX: Objection. I'm sorry.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: I'm sorry, did you object?
MR. KNOX: No, I withdraw it.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Withdrew it.
AIt was supposed to be a six week plan when Jeff started there.
QOkay. So after the sixth week he continued until the sixteenth week?
ARight.
QAre you familiar with how much it costs per day for the treatments?
ANo.
QOkay. I'd like to turn your attention to the first big binder in your notebook. And if you can turn to --
PRESIDENT RHYNE: This is the big notebook?
MR. JIMISON: Yeah. The thick ‑- thick one, the big thick one.
MS. GODFREY: Is it two?
QOkay. If you can turn to page 265.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Is that Tab 2, page 265?
MR. JIMISON: Yes, ma'am. Tab 2, page 265.
Q(By Mr. Jimison) I wanted you to look at just the entry on the left which says June 1st. Do you see that?
AYes.
QAnd there's several entries for June 1st until you get to June 11th, correct?
AYes.
QOkay. And then it actually starts back at June 2nd. But just ‑- just focusing on June 1st, we'll focus for June 1st, there is a list of services your husband received from Dr. Buttar, correct?
AYeah.
QAnd the first one is a therapeutic or diagnostic injection. And then there's another therapeutic or diagnostic injection. And then there are one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, ten charges for IV infusion therapies.
ARight.
QAnd each infusion therapy and it's followed by $125, $70 and then the next one will be 125 and 70 and 125 and 70 and so on. Then there's a comprehensive metabolic panel that was taken, a lipid panel that was taken. Something called iron or iron binding capacity was given, biofeedback training by any modality for $150. Something called an ACP 3 that cost $100, black walnut $42, PBIB that cost $100, chocolate protein powder that charge is $76. And then there's a thing called an adjustment for 365. And then there's basically a check payment for $1400, correct?
ARight.
QAnd if you just take time going back to page 259 all the way through page 267, you will see ‑- did you go to page 259?
AYeah.
QAnd if you can just sort of ‑- sort of skim, you know, quickly through page 267, there's basically many of the same entries and charges beginning from April 26th through June 11th. And do you see the balance at the end on page 267?
AYes.
QAnd how much is that?
A$25,237.41.
QWhen your husband first showed up to Dr. Buttar, what was his emotional state?
AHe was glad to find a cure because ‑-
QCould you speak into the ‑-
AHe wanted to find a cure -- (inaudible).
QOkay. Was he seeking hard with the ‑- I mean, figuratively seeking some sort of alternative?
AYes.
QWas he desperate?
MR. KNOX: Objection.
MS. GODFREY: Well, objection to the meaning of --
MR. KNOX: I mean, she's described him as he didn't want to give up, but he's now characterizing --
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Object. Yeah, that's sustained.
MR. JIMISON: I'll rephrase.
Q(By Mr. Jimison) Characterize to the degree of how he didn't want to give up.
AHe had a wife and three children at home, he had a lot to live for and he was -- (inaudible).
QOkay. And so when he was away from the home, was he spending time with his children?
AHe was home every day. He was home in the evening.
QOkay. So he could only see his children during the night?
ACorrect.
QAnd did you ever see any improvement in your husband's condition during the time he was with Dr. Buttar?
ANo, I did not. He just grew worse quickly.
QAnd describe him during this four month period or this several month period.
AHe lost weight, just physically looked ill or was physically ill and that just perpetuated.
QAt some point did your husband stop seeing Dr. Buttar?
AHe did, yes.
QAnd why was that?
AWell, he had ‑- Dr. Buttar thought he was better and ordered a CAT scan because the ‑- it was very apparent that he was not getting better even though the test results said that he was and the cancer was breaking up. And, anyway, that was when he left. That was his last day.
MR. KNOX: I object to what Dr. Buttar says she said. She was not there.
QDid ‑-
PRESIDENT RHYNE: If she ‑- your objection is?
MR. KNOX: Yes. If she wasn't there that's hearsay.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Yeah, it's hearsay.
Q(By Mr. Jimison) At some point, did you ever stop paying Dr. Buttar for his treatments?
AI canceled ‑- on Jeff's last day, I canceled the last payment.
QAnd why did you do that?
AI did that when I read the results from the CAT scan.
QAnd what were the results of his CAT scan?
AThat it had spread to the other side of his liver and it was completely all over the lungs. And my husband came home telling me that Dr. Buttar told him there was nothing he ‑-
MR. KNOX: Objection.
QGo ahead. And your husband came home and you had a conversation with your husband?
AYes.
QAnd ‑- and did your husband continue on with his treatment?
ADid he want to continue to?
QWith Dr. Buttar?
ANo. Not after seeing the report, no.
QOkay. And so after your husband was getting treatments from Dr. Buttar, the therapies that are mentioned in the medical records which are in evidence, the hydrogen peroxide, the ozone chelation therapies ‑-
ARight.
Q‑- the biofeedback, the vitamins, his cancer continued to spread ‑-
ACorrect.
Q‑- according to that CAT scan?
ACorrect.
QAnd at some point he stopped seeing Dr. Buttar and you canceled a check. And what happened to that ‑- how did Dr. Buttar's office respond to you canceling the check?
AThey returned ‑- well, they sent me a few bills and they went up in increments and then it was turned over to a collection agency.
QAnd when did your husband pass away?
ASeptember 6th of '04.
QApproximately two or three months after seeing Dr. Buttar?
ARight.
QAnd prior to him passing away, what did he do?
AHe went to Mexico to the Issles Clinic.
QDid he go to Mexico?
AHe did, yeah.
QWhy did he go to Mexico?
AFor further treatment.
QAnd what kind of treatments did he receive in Mexico?
ATheir's was also alternative care.
QAnd describe the day ‑- did any of that work in Mexico?
AWell, I don't ‑-
MR. KNOX: Well, objection.
MR. JIMISON: Well, to her opinion, she can give her opinion about whether she thinks it worked. It's well within a lay opinion.
MR. KNOX: Well, objection. She's not a doctor, she can say what observation she may ‑-
MR. JIMISON: Lay people can ‑-
PRESIDENT RHYNE: She can ‑- she can give her observation.
MR. JIMISON: Her observation.
Q(By Mr. Jimison) Did ‑- did the treatments in Mexico seem to be working on your husband ‑-
MR. KNOX: Objection.
Q‑- from your observations of your husband?
AHe came home looking better, but obviously he passed away anyway.
MR. KNOX: Withdrawn.
QHow soon did he die after coming back from Mexico?
AHe came back from Mexico the middle of July.
QOkay. And within a month and a half he had died?
ARight.
QNow, describe that day when your husband died.
AWell, earlier in the day he had his family, he was with our children and myself and he woke me up I think about 2 a.m. that morning saying that he didn't feel well and asked me to call the ambulance. He looked gray and was sweating. So, anyway, we went to the hospital and they wanted to transfer him downtown to -- (inaudible) -- and he just never got that far even.
QAnd how has this experience with you, your husband and Dr. Buttar affected you?
AIt makes me very angry that he could do this. I understand that alternative medicine doesn't cure everything, but I think he needs to be honest with his patients, that -- that particularly where a scan should have been done and he should have been told honestly that it had spread. And to tell a patient that there's nothing conclusion in the radiologist report where the radiologist said that it spread everywhere and to continue with the therapy and we'll talk then. It's just criminal.
MR. KNOX: Well, objection.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: I'm sorry.
MR. KNOX: I objected to her classification of what the -- (inaudible).
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Sustained. We'll disregard that.
Q(By Mr. Jimison) Was your husband still being followed by an oncologist when he was being seen by Dr. Buttar?
AHe was seeing him before and after Dr. Levine.
QOkay. And did your oncologist give your husband a life expectancy when ‑- when ‑- when the cancer spread?
MR. KNOX: Objection. I mean, he's not here.
MR. JIMISON: She knows ‑-
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Objection sustained.
MR. JIMISON: But if she knows, I mean, we're treating family, she ‑- she would have known her husband's life expectancy.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: You can ‑- you can ‑- unless you were there, you cannot. It's hearsay.
WITNESS: If I heard the doctor say anything?
MR. JIMISON: Okay. I'll withdraw it.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Yeah. Let us know if you heard the doctor say anything.
WITNESS: I did. He said it ‑-
PRESIDENT RHYNE: You were present?
WITNESS: I was present, yes. And that was a year.
Q(By Mr. Jimison) He give him a year?
ARight.
MR. JIMISON: Okay. Thank you.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Thank you.
Ms. Godfrey or Mr. Knox, do you want to cross-examine?
MR. KNOX: One of us will.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KNOX:
QMs. Kenny, as I understand it, you went with your husband to the first visit.
ARight.
QWould you describe Dr. Buttar's office?
AIt's just a lot of little rooms on the hallway.
QWhat does the physical structure of the office appear like? Is it a one-story or two-story or three-story.
AIt is a one-story strip mall.
QOne-story what?
AStrip mall.
QSo he was in a strip mall?
AThat's what I would call it. It wasn't an office complex or --
QAnd where was he located?
ACornelius on Torrance Chapel Road, I believe.
QYou believe it was? Whereabouts in Cornelius?
AI don't have the address for you because it's been too long.
QHow did you get there?
AMy husband drove.
QAnd what roads did you take from Matthews?
A485 to the interstate.
Q485?
AYes.
QWhat interstate? Would you take 85?
AI don't know. I was not driving.
QYou remember I took your deposition a while back?
AYes.
QCorrect? So I'll be asking you some questions. You were living at home with your husband at the time he became ill?
AYes.
QAnd he was under the treatment of a doctor -- not family physician -- who was the other one?
AHis oncologist?
AYes.
QDr. Levine.
QDr. Levine. So Dr. Levine was treating him. Now, he was treated with radiation therapy, correct?
AYes.
QAnd he went through some 16 of 28 injected radiation therapy treatments and he got deathly ill, didn't he?
AIt made him very nauseous.
QAnd he was throwing up, he lost weight, he stayed in the house most of the time, am I correct?
AYes.
QAnd you all ‑- he wanted to go see Dr. Buttar and you didn't want him to go to that office, did you?
AI just didn't want him just to decide on Dr. Buttar -- (inaudible) -- I wanted him to -- (inaudible).
QYou preferred that he go to Mexico, did you? Or where ‑- where did you prefer?
AI didn't have a preference. I didn't know about Dr. Buttar at all. I didn't know about -- (inaudible) -- heard of it.
QAnd when you ‑- when you say that Dr. Buttar indicated that he would be cured as you said in your initial visit, do you remember ‑- you identified for me some signatures of your husband on some documents; is that correct?
AYes.
QAnd we went over those documents very carefully about what it was that Dr. Buttar could do, correct?
AUh-huh (yes).
MS. GODFREY: Maybe at this point, can we hand the documents out? We've got -- this is Buttar's Exhibit 17 and we have books for the Medical Board and I've given the book to Marcus so that you can all follow along.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Okay.
MS. GODFREY: We can mark it. You can give that to Ed. And I've got one for you. Here you go.
Q(By Mr. Knox) Have you had a chance to read that, ma'am?
ACorrect.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Mr. Knox, can you tell us where you are?
MS. GODFREY: Exhibit Number 17.
Q(By Mr. Knox) It's called Patient Information and Registration form. You see it?
AYes, sir.
MS. GODFREY: And the redaction is not -- on the original to be removed, if she wants to check on those for the signature.
Q(By Mr. Knox) You notice at the bottom, the signature, but when we took your deposition you indicated you all went about in February and that he signed this Patient Information form, correct?
AYes.
QAnd so you're sure you were there when it was signed, correct?
AI was with him on this first treatment -- not his first treatment, but I was with him on the first visit in Dr. Buttar's office, whether this was signed at that time, I do not know.
QOkay. Well, actually he had called about the financial policy ahead of time, hadn't he?
AHe did get information on the --
QAnd they had explained to him the financial policy, if you come to our clinic you'll have to pay cash because insurance doesn't apply as a rule even though I think some insurance did apply, didn't it?
AThere were certain things that they --
QSo if you look at the bottom of this: "I understand that the safety and efficacy of many such therapies have not been established with controlled studies. Specifically, no claim to cure cancer with these therapies has been made to me and Dr. Buttar will not be providing hospital care or emergency care for me in this clinic and the therapies received will compliment the care I receive from my primary care physician and will not replace them."
Correct? That's what it says, doesn't it?
AIt does.
QSo when you say -- there's nothing in that documentation that your husband signed about 100 percent cure, is there?
ANo.
QNot a word. Now, in addition to that and I'll ask you to go next to the financial policy and I believe you identified that and that should be the one right behind it. You see that? I think it's Number 18.
And this is the financial policy that I assume you were there and your husband signed this, correct?
AYes.
QI mean you identified his signature at the deposition?
AYes, I did.
QAnd that specifically says and talks about the fact that insurance will not apply, so you both were aware of that?
AYes.
QAnd you knew you were on a cash basis or a credit card basis, correct?
ACorrect.
QAnd your husband paid for every visit timely as he got the treatment, am I correct?
AYes.
QAnd after he paid for that sometime subsequently, I believe he had gone to Mexico and you decided that you would cancel this $6700 check that he personally wrote?
ANo. I canceled that check on the last day that he saw Dr. Buttar.
QSo you called after that to cancel the check that your husband had written, correct?
AWhen he got home that day, yes.
QAnd you had never been, after you went the first time, back to Dr. Buttar's clinic to watch any of the treatments or talk to the doctor or to any of the nurses, am I correct?
AI only went the first time.
QYeah. And your husband brought home lab results and whatever with him?
AYes.
QNow, at the same time Dr. Levine had been treating him with Procrit; is that correct, for iron deficiency?
AI don't know. He received a shot at the oncologist's office --(inaudible) -- repeatedly --(inaudible) -- at that time.
QI'm sorry, I didn't hear you.
AHe repeatedly had that, but that was after he got --
QAnd that's what the instructions say, you should stay with your regular doctor when you come in here to take these alternative therapies, didn't it?
AThat's what we just said, yes.
QAnd you were not promised that the safety and efficacy of these therapies had been established, correct?
AIf I had read that and signed that, I could say that. I'd can only say whatever Dr. Buttar told us.
QIt says that Dr. Buttar would not treat private hospitalizations.
ACorrect.
QRight.
AIt does say that.
QAnd it said the complimentative treatment that I receive will assist in my medical care with my regular doctor.
AUh-huh (yes).
QAnd it says that returned checks will be subject to additional collection fees, doesn't it?
AWhere am I at now?
QAt the financial column. We went over this before and you testified ‑-
AYes, it does.
Q‑- that you understood that, right?
AYes.
QSo when you canceled payment of your husband's check that he wrote, you knew that there might be some collection fees, correct?
AYes.
QBut it didn't make you happy you, did it? It upset you?
AWhat upset me was the lie that he --
QSo it upset you about the check and you wrote the North Carolina Medical Board, am I right?
AI wrote to them in a complaint, yes.
QYeah. And before you wrote to them, you told the staff people that you were going to turn him into the Medical Board because they were issuing it to a financial collection agency; is that correct?
ANo, that I have no recollection of.
QSo you don't know whether you told the staff if y'all do this, I'm going to turn you into the Medical Board?
AAs I said in my deposition, I remember calling them about why the bill was then what it was as opposed to the $6700.
QBut you don't remember when you threatened to send him to the Medical Board, do you?
ANo, no.
QCould that be true?
ACould what be true?
QThat you threatened him.
AI think that would be really out of character for me.
QBeg your pardon?
AI think that would be very out of character for me. I do not remember doing that.
QLet's go back. When your husband finished the radiation therapy, he had fatigue. We went over that in the health information, correct?
AYes.
QAnd he was not going out of the house?
ARight.
QHe had been vomiting from the radiation?
ACorrect.
QHe did nothing with his children at that time?
ARight.
QHe was losing weight?
AYes.
QNow, when he went up to ‑- as a matter of fact, he lost about 59 pounds total, didn't he?
AYes.
QAnd when he went up to Dr. Buttar and started taking these therapies for his immune system, he went from that to feeling better; is that fair?
AHe was feeling better before he went to Dr. Buttar because in February what they found on the scan, we were shocked.
QWell, let me explain to you or ask you this question. He took his last therapy the first weeks of February and went to Dr. Buttar within a week or two, didn't he?
AYou're talking about radiation?
QYes.
AThat stopped in December.
QOkay. Is it your testimony that he wasn't taking any radiation past December?
AYes.
QSo when he went to Dr. Buttar, if he checked out the forms that he was ‑- he had fatigue, he was losing weight, he had no energy, was that his condition then?
AWhen he went to Dr. Buttar's office?
QYes. Do you remember going over the form about what he checked on his health ‑- his general health form? And we went over that to show that on a scale of 0 to 5, he had a 5 about fatigue? Am I right?
AI remember talking about it, I don't remember all that he said.
QSo when you say he was feeling very well and he wrote down to Dr. Buttar the history, he wrote down that he wasn't feeling so well, am I right?
AI'm saying that from the start to the radiation, yes, he lost a ton of weight, he had massive surgery, had radiation, he started feeling better. When he was seeing Dr. Buttar, he was starting to do better.
QWell, I thought you said that he sold his business.
AHe did on impulse.
QAnd I thought you said that he did nothing. He said that he was fatigued and was unable to do anything when he went to see Dr. Buttar.
ANo, that's not true.
QAnd then he went ‑-
AWhen he finished radiation, he was able to --
QI'm sorry. At any event, the therapy that he was taking, he began to do a lot more than he had in the past, am I right?
I mean, he started walking, you said that. And he started going to the kids' games, things of that nature?
AI felt like I'm being put into a corner here. After the radiation he started to do better. He was shocked, we were all shocked -- (inaudible) -- but that's when we sought the alternative medicine. He was not on -- (inaudible) -- at that point.
QNow, he died in September of '04; is that right?
AYes.
QAfter he left Dr. Buttar he went to Mexico to a Mexican hospital ‑-
AYes.
Q‑- for alternative treatments.
AYes.
QCorrect?
AYes.
QAnd you say that's after he realized that Dr. Buttar had not helped him, he went to the same type of procedure, an alternative procedure; is that correct?
AYes. He wasn't -- when he started with Dr. Buttar.
QAnd did he spend funds on that trip?
AYes.
QFlying?
AHe used frequent flyer miles.
QOkay. Did he stay in the hospital?
AHe did.
QDo you have any idea what that cost?
AAbout 25,000.
QAbout 25,000. He was there how long?
AA month.
QMore than what Dr. Buttar charged when he turned him into the collection department?
AThe $25,000?
QYes.
AI don't know.
QHow about what your oncologist charged for the radiation treatment? How much did that cost?
AI don't know.
QYou were subpoenaed to bring some documents with you today about what the costs were. Did you bring them?
AI did.
QWhere are they?
AUnder my chair.
QHave you looked at them to see what those costs are?
ANo.
QDo you know what the oncologist costs were, I'll take your word?
ANo. I didn't look at that. I just -- the subpoena -- (inaudible).
QAnd that was about $25,000.
Now, was your husband satisfied with the staff at Dr. Buttar's office? He liked them?
AYes, he like the staff.
QAfter he came back from Mexico, Dr. Levine saw him again and recommended that he continue the therapy from Mexico, am I right?
AI believe so.
QNow, prior to your filing this claim, you became ‑- there's no administration of your estate ‑- of your husband's estate ‑-
ARight.
Q‑- correct?
ARight.
QHe moved everything into your name, correct?
AI have nothing to my name. My husband's name was taken off -- (inaudible).
QWell, you sold the house, didn't you?
AYes.
QAnd you refinanced the houses?
AI just sold one of my properties, the first of this year.
QThe fact was, there was no estate for which any collection agency or Dr. Buttar could have collected any money?
ARight.
QNow, you did not go to Mexico?
AI did not.
QAnd you had a four-year-old that you had his parents available to help sit or other relatives that could have kept your baby?
AI have three children.
QSorry?
AI have three children.
QWell, I understand two of them are --
AMy oldest was -- my middle child is 18 and our youngest was four.
QBut you had family members you testified to that were available to stay with your children if you wanted to go to Mexico with your husband; is that true?
AWhat I testified to was that my husband and I decided it was best for me to stay home with the children.
QSo you went to one visit at Dr. Buttar's office, correct?
AYes.
QYou never went to Mexico, we agree with that. And finally you went to see Dr. Levine what, one time?
ANo, almost every time he went to Dr. Levine.
QAnd you never went to radiation, did you?
AI went for the original, but, no.
QThe staff members of Dr. Buttar came to your husband's funeral, didn't they?
AI remember Michelle being there.
QAnd I believe you told me that you had only one conversation with Michelle and that was at the funeral and she called the house at one time.
AShe did call the house and she was at the funeral.
QNow, you wrote that Michelle Reed had indicated that she left Dr. Buttar because of circumstances surrounding his practice. Did you write that in that information?
AUh-huh (yes).
QYes, you never really talked to her except that one time on the telephone at your husband's house or your house?
AAt our house, yes.
QAnd the truth of the matter is, you made up the fact that she allegedly left the practice of Dr. Buttar because you didn't know that she had come back and spent another two years with Dr. Buttar after your husband's death, did you?
AI didn't make anything up.
QOkay. Did you make that statement, yes or no?
AWhat statement?
QThat Michelle had left Dr. Buttar's practice?
AThat's what I was told.
QSo that was hearsay from somebody else? But in these interrogatories by the investigative officer you told him that you had talked to Michelle Reed and Michelle Reed told you that, right?
AMichelle had called the house and I heard that Michelle talked to Jerry Messina, Michelle talked to a lawyer that Jerry had spoken to and I can't tell you exactly which conversation that came up and it was told to me.
QMichelle Reed never told you that, that's true, isn't it?
AI can't tell you whether it's true or not.
QYou don't remember? Is that your testimony?
AI don't know if she told Jeff, I don't know if she said that to me on the phone, I don't know if she told it to Jerry.
QWhen your husband was in ‑- over in Mexico, did you know that he was e-mailing Dr. Buttar almost ‑- his staff almost daily?
ANo.
QDo you know that they were e-mailing him back?
AI know that there were staff members that kept in touch with him.
QDo you know that his sister was e-mailing him about Jeff's condition and about his death?
AYes.
QYou see your in-laws what, at special events like Christmas?
AI see them, is that what you said?
QThat's what you said, you saw them at special events.
AHis sister was -- (inaudible) -- but his father --(inaudible).
QHis what?
AHis father on holidays.
QOn holidays?
AUh-huh (yes).
QYou take your children over there on holidays; is that right?
AI see them sometimes on holidays.
QSometimes?
AYes. If I do see them, it would be on a holiday.
QHave you talked to Jerry Messina?
AYes.
QAnd you and he conferred about how this case was going to be tried, didn't you?
AConferred about this case?
QYes.
AWe've talked about everything that he has -- since we had -- (inaudible).
QDo you remember when you filed your complaint?
AThe date of the filing?
QYes, the date you wrote the letter to the Board.
ANo, I don't, it was two and a half years ago.
QI'm sorry, excuse me. So you filed this on October ‑- it was stamped with the Medical Board October of '05; is that right?
AYes.
QAnd when did you get the letter from the collection agency? Not long before that?
AI don't know. I really don't know. I'm sure it was before that. Not long had gone by.
MR. KNOX: I have no further questions.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Mr. Jimison, do you want to redirect?
MR. JIMISON: Just a few minutes, Dr. Rhyne.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. JIMISON:
QIf you could turn to the thin notebook, please.
ATurn to what?
QThe Board's thin notebook. Exhibit 22.
MS. GODFREY: What number?
MR. JIMISON: Number 22.
MS. GODFREY: We're going to object to this. The complaints as put before the Medical Board have lots of hearsay in them and being this complaint and this witness has been here to testify about it.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Excuse me, I didn't hear the last sentence that you said.
MS. GODFREY: I'm sorry. We object to the admission of the complaints themselves because they do have hearsay in them. This witness has been here ‑- here and examined about it so we object to the Board considering the complaint itself because it does have hearsay in it.
MR. JIMISON: Dr. Rhyne, they opened the door to this complaint. They asked many questions about when did you file this complaint, they ‑- they made questions which made implications that she filed the complaint because of the collection agency, this being referred, they asked when she filed the complaint. They clearly opened the door to this complaint coming into evidence, so they waive any objection by ‑- by questioning her on the complaint. They waived all objections at that point. They completely opened the door.
MR. KNOX: That would completely open the door for us to go back and examine her. I just asked her two questions about when it was filed and ‑- and what her chief complaint was about in the case and that's factual reference.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Yeah, I'm going to overrule the objections ‑-
MR. JIMISON: Okay.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: ‑- the Board can continue. Go ahead.
Q(By Mr. Jimison) If you can identify Tab 22, Exhibit 22. Was that the complaint you filed with the Medical Board?
AYes.
QOkay.
MR. JIMISON: At this point, I'd like to enter the Board's Exhibit 22 into evidence.
MR. KNOX: Well, to begin with, we object on the basis of hearsay that's included in it.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: I'm sorry, you object to ‑-
MR. KNOX: We object on the basis it's full of hearsay about what somebody told.
MR. JIMISON: And, again, the Board claims they waived all objections when they questioned her on the complaint. Okay. And also ‑-
MR. KNOX: Wait a minute. Is your ‑-
MS. GODFREY: She did.
MR. KNOX: I mean, if she did, I didn't hear.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: I'm sorry, for not speaking in the mike.
Q(By Mr. Jimison) And now I hate to keep flipping back and forth, but they ‑- they mentioned ‑- now back to their exhibit, Patient's Exhibit ‑- I mean, Dr. Buttar's Exhibit Number 17, could you refer back to that?
PRESIDENT RHYNE: This is in their book?
MS. GODFREY: Yes.
Q(By Mr. Jimison) He asked you many questions about the Consent to Treatment form, correct?
AYes.
QThat is fair to say that Consent to Treatment form is about one paragraph long?
AYes.
QIs that the bottom of Patient Information and Registration form?
AYes.
QI'd like to read to you the first sentence of that, but before I do, do you recall Mr. Knox asking you about questions about Dr. Buttar treating your husband's immune system, correct?
AYes.
QWell, now I'd like to read the first sentence. "I authorize the medical and nursing staff of Advanced Concepts in Medicine to perform diagnostic tests and administer treatment plans for allergy, immune disorders, nutritional disorders, cancer and other chronic medical conditions." Correct?
AYes.
QSo that first sentence is saying that he's consenting to Advance Concepts in Medicine, the staff themselves, to administer treatment plans for cancer?
ARight.
QWas it your understanding that your husband was getting treatment for cancer when you went to Dr. Buttar's office?
MR. KNOX: We'll object to ‑-
AYes, absolutely.
MR. KNOX: -- this is leading. I mean, just it's him testifying and we object to the leading.
Q(By Mr. Jimison) What was your understanding ‑- I'll rephrase.
What was your understanding of what your husband was being treated for when he went to Dr. Buttar's office?
AHe was being treated for his cancer.
QOkay. Did ‑- did Dr. Buttar, during that meeting, say he was doing any research for cancer treatments?
ANo.
QDid he say he was doing any experimentations on cancer treatments?
ANo.
QDid he say that his treatments were experimental?
ANo.
QDid he tell you about any of the side effects of hydrogen peroxide or ozone or chelation therapy?
ANo.
QDid ‑- did he mention anything about an Institutional Review Board that reviews his work?
ANo.
MR. KNOX: Well, objection. I guess he could ask her if they discussed anything? To ask these continuous, repeated --
MR. JIMISON: I'm asking about questions that ‑-
MR. KNOX: Well, I made my objection, may I be heard?
MR. JIMISON: I can respond to his objection.
MR. KNOX: Well, you don't have to interrupt.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Yeah. Mr. Jimison, could you ‑- what is your line of questioning here?
MR. JIMISON: The question is what was not said during that ‑- that meeting with Dr. Buttar and that Ms. Kenny contended because he clearly asked her about what was said or what this form said. I'm trying to get what was not said.
QDid ‑- did he ‑-
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Yeah. I would say just move on ‑-
MR. JIMISON: Okay. Just a few ‑- few more, just one or two.
Q(By Mr. Jimison) "The therapies will compliment the care I received from my primary care physician." Did Dr. Buttar encourage your husband to stay with his oncologist?
ANo.
MS. GODFREY: Objection.
MR. KNOX: Objection.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Ask it again.
Q(By Mr. Jimison) It's a question during ‑- I'm just asking what he did or did not say. Did he ask about staying on with your oncologist during that first meeting?
PRESIDENT RHYNE: I'm going to overrule your objection since she was there.
MR. KNOX: Okay.
Q(By Mr. Jimison) Did he say ‑- did he encourage your husband to stay on with his oncologist after ‑- during that first meeting?
ANo, he did not.
MR. JIMISON: That's all.
MR. KNOX: Okay.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Objection? Okay.
MR. KNOX: Just a couple of questions.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Mr. Knox.
RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. KNOX:
QYou fully understood that he signed this Advanced Concepts in Alternative and Preventive Medicine and initialed it at every place acknowledging that they explained in detail the purpose of the chelation therapy, correct?
MS. GODFREY: Page 3 of Exhibit 17.
MR. KNOX: 17.
MS. GODFREY: Buttar's 17.
MR. KNOX: All right.
Q(By Mr. Knox) You got it?
AYeah, I do.
QAnd he's initialled his name all the way down there that he understood that this was ‑- the chelation therapy was to help his immune system, and correct me if I'm not right, you testified that Dr. Buttar explained that the treatment was to help his immune system. Didn't you say that previously?
AYes.
QSo when you ‑- he did not say the cancer, but he said this would help ‑- the chelation would help the immune system and that may help his condition with the cancer, is that a fair statement?
ANo.
QOkay. And notwithstanding all of that, with all of the doctors aside, he elected to have the therapy, am I right?
AHe did elect to have it, yes.
QAnd you never went back to object until you got a $6700 bill ‑-
MR. JIMISON: Objection, asked and answered.
AI want to say to you that my husband started this when he was alive. It's not hearsay that I repeated it.
QThe last question is it is my informed decision that I accept chelation treatment as an alternative approach to surgical and other individual therapies. Okay. Do you read that? It's about midway of the second paragraph.
AOn the chelation page?
QYeah. Read the second paragraph. Have you read it?
AUh-huh (yes).
QAnd there's not one word in that paragraph that your husband signed that talks about curing cancer, correct?
ANo, it doesn't in that paragraph.
MR. KNOX: That's all I have.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Anything else? Any Board Members have questions?
EXAMINATION BY THE PANEL MEMBERS:
DR. McCULLOCH: Thanks for being here, Ms. Kenny.
You were present at the first visit with Dr. Buttar?
WITNESS: Yes.
DR. McCULLOCH: Correct me if I'm wrong, was it your testimony that he informed your husband that he has 100 percent success rate in curing cancer?
WITNESS: Yes.
DR. McCULLOCH: A 100 percent success rate in curing cancer is your ‑-
WITNESS: Yes.
DR. McCULLOCH: Despite what he may have signed or the papers that are here on exhibit, that's what he said?
WITNESS: Yes.
DR. McCULLOCH: Okay. One other question, it's a little difficult, but you tried alternative medicine for several months?
WITNESS: Yes.
DR. McCULLOCH: And in your estimation, it failed?
WITNESS: Yes.
DR. McCULLOCH: Why ‑- did you and your husband have conversations about why he would want to continue with more alternative medicine in Mexico?
WITNESS: Well, he considered the Issles Clinic early on. Dr. Buttar initially claims that he did exactly what they do there, that he in fact created a lot of things that they do use there and he wanted to stay in the country because it was cheaper here. But when that did not work, he chose to go out of the country and to go there.
DR. McCULLOCH: That's all I have, thank you.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: I just have one question. Were you with your husband when Dr. Buttar explained the CAT scan that showed the progression of the disease?
WITNESS: No. My husband just brought that report home.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Okay. So you were not with him?
WITNESS: Uh-uh (no).
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Okay. We thank you very much for coming, Mrs. Kenny. We're all very sorry for your loss.
WITNESS: Thank you.
MR. JIMISON: At this point, the Board would like to call Mr. Messina, but we have to do it by telephone and I need to get the person in here to do the telephone. I don't know if the Board Members would like to take a five-minute break.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: We'll take a five-minute break.
MS. GODFREY: A five-minute break?
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Uh-huh (yes).
MS. GODFREY: Thank you.
(11:12 A.M. - 11:25 A.M. RECESS)
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Okay. Mr. Jimison, do you have another witness at this point?
MR. JIMISON: Okay. We now ‑- the Board would now like to call Mr. Messina to the stand. Mr. Messina, are you on the telephone?
(DISCUSSION OFF RECORD)
MR. JIMISON: Okay. Mr. Messina, are you there? Hello.
MR. MESSINA: Hello.
MR. JIMISON: Mr. Messina, my name is Marcus Jimison. I'm an attorney for the Medical Board.
MR. MESSINA: Yes.
MR. JIMISON: We're now ‑- you're now being broadcast to the entire Medical Board. And I would like to now have you be addressed by Dr. Rhyne.
MR. MESSINA: Okay.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Mr. Messina, I'm Dr. Rhyne and I'm the presiding officer. Drs. McCulloch and Walker are here with me and we will proceed now to swear you in.
Do you solemnly swear that your testimony will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God.
WITNESS: Yes.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: You may proceed.
MR. JIMISON: Okay. Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. JIMISON:
QMr. Messina, could you state your name please for the Board?
AI'm sorry?
QCould you state your name please for the Board?
AJerry Messina.
QAnd where do you presently live, Mr. Messina?
ALos Angeles, California.
QAnd how are you related to Patient B?
AShe was my aunt.
QAnd describe your aunt for the Board, please.
ADescribe her as a person?
AYes, sir.
QShe's ‑- she was very caring. She was always there for my brothers and I, no matter what. She loved us dearly and she was a very strong woman that wanted to beat cancer.
QDid your aunt get cancer at some point in her life?
AShe was diagnosed in 2002.
QDo you know what her diagnosis was?
AOvarian cancer.
QAnd how old was your aunt when she got diagnosed?
AFifty.
QOkay. And how was she first treated for cancer, if you know?
AShe was first treated with chemotherapy.
QOkay. And did that cure her of her cancer?
ANo.
QAnd at some point did your aunt continue to receive chemotherapy for her cancer?
AYes. She had three different chemo treatments.
QDid any of it work?
AThe first one started to work and reduced the cancer a significant amount. The second one did not and the third one moderately.
QOkay. Did her cancer spread, to your knowledge?
AI don't know.
QOkay. At some point did your aunt go see Dr. Buttar?
AYes.
MS. GODFREY: Well, I'm going to object unless this witness has personal knowledge of his aunt's interactions with Dr. Buttar.
MR. JIMISON: There is an exception to the ‑-
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Wait a minute. Well, go ahead.
MR. JIMISON: If you look at 804 ‑- Rule 804 about the hearsay, it says: Exceptions to the hearsay rule are statements of personal and family history and it says the statement concerning the clearance on adoption, divorce, marital, family history or other ‑- or other similar fact of personal or family history even though declarant had no means to inquire in personal knowledge, it's an exception if the declarant was related to, other by blood, adoption, marriage, what's intimately associated with the other's family as likely to have accurate information concerning the matter declared.
So essentially it's a matter of family history, what her medical condition was, it can show the person's related and have intimate knowledge of this person's medical history.
MS. GODFREY: No. I think he's allowed to testify that he is her nephew and that he knows that because somebody told him that at one time in his life. But I don't think this covers what he's about to get into which is her interactions with Dr. Buttar. Dr. Buttar's interactions with her were not family history and not ‑- and something that he learned ‑- unless ‑- unless he was present, he learned it by someone else telling him and it could have been somebody else in the family or his aunt herself. But he didn't ‑- unless he was present here in North Carolina of his own personal knowledge whatever he knows about his aunt's interactions with Dr. Buttar will be hearsay.
MR. JIMISON: Dr. Rhyne, I can hand up the rule that says ‑- it talks about hearsay exceptions where the declarant is unavailable.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: Can you give us a copy of that rule?
MR. JIMISON: Yeah.
DR. WALKER: It's actually in the motions.
MR. JIMISON: I don't think she had 804.
MS. GODFREY: I copied 804. I believe it's in the motion. Is 804 there?
MR. KNOX: And it's a statement of personal or family history.
MR. JIMISON: But if you go back and look up that before that, you'll see ‑- you'll see the rule is actually when the declarant is unavailable. And they talk about under number 3 ‑-
MS. GODFREY: That's the 3. Okay. The statement against ‑-
MR. JIMISON: Is unable to be present or testify at a hearing because of death. Here we have witnesses who have died, so clearly they can't testify. And then if you go to the exceptions, the following are exceptions. The statement under belief of impending death, a statement made by declarant while believing that her death was imminent concerning the cause or circumstances -- not just the cause but the circumstances -- of what he believe his or her impending death.
And then you go to number 4, a statement concerning the foregoing matters and death also of another person if the declarant was related to, either by blood, adoption or marriage or was so intimately associated with the other's family as to be likely to have accurate information concerning the matters declared. And all I'm asking is basically the events leading up to her death.
MS. GODFREY: Well, Mr. Jimison has an interesting reading of this. Traditionally ‑-
MR. JIMISON: I think it's just a reading.
MS. GODFREY: Traditionally, statements under belief of impending death, the way it's taught in law school is dying declarations. And, you know, if somebody gets shot and they identify their murderer, you know, as they're dying, then the law allows that hearsay into evidence. This is not that situation.
MR. JIMISON: Well, we haven't gotten that. We haven't even laid down ‑-
MS. GODFREY: Mr. Jimison, I let you speak without interrupting you. I'd appreciate the same courtesy.
The other thing, the statements of personal or family history, that's an exception that has to do with what I said. Mr. Messina knows he's the nephew of Patient B because somebody told him. But, again, the law says that that's okay for him to know that by hearsay because obviously that's the only way he could know it.
This does not cover interactions with her doctor that he was not witness to. He learned that ‑- he learned what he learned either through conversations with his aunt or conversations with his mother who was his aunt's sister who's not even a witness here. And we would object to any testimony that he has to offer unless he can say he came to North Carolina and personally observed.
MR. JIMISON: The objection was made before really I think I asked ‑- at this point, I have truly forgotten what the question was, but ‑- but in any event, I'll rephrase the questions, lay a foundation, and then you'll see where I'm going and if there is anything that you believe is improper, then I'll just withdraw the questions.
PRESIDENT RHYNE: All right. We will proceed on that, but I do agree that he cannot testify as to conversations between the patient and Dr. Buttar if he was not present.
MR. JIMISON: Well, no, just want to ask about their own conversations between themselves, he and his aunt.
MS. GODFREY: Well, again, that's ‑- that's hearsay as well.
MR. JIMISON: And like I said, I'll lay the foundation and when we get there ‑-
PRESIDENT RHYNE: We'll rule on the individual questions.
MS. GODFREY: Absolutely.
Q(By Mr. Jimison) Were you ‑- how often did you have conversations with your aunt while she ‑- when she had cancer? I'm not asking you to tell me what she said, just how often.
AWe talked a couple of times a week, if not almost every day.
QI'm sorry, I was still asking the question and I was not done and I know it's kind of two-fold.
I'm not asking you what your aunt said to you, I'm just asking how often did you have conversations with your aunt during the time that she had cancer?
AA couple of times a week, if not almost every single day.
QAnd how close were you to your aunt?
Dr. Buttar Truth Quotes
“Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.”
—- Albert Einstein
“Truth is generally the best vindication against slander.”
—- Abraham Lincoln
"All truth passes through 3 phases: First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed, and Third, it is accepted as self-evident."
—- Arthur Schopenhauer
"There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things because the innovator has for enemies all those who have done well under the old conditions and lukewarm defenders in those who may do well under the new."
—- Machiavelli, The Prince